WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.560 --> 00:00:15.540 Sandra Yocum: So I'm Dr. Sandra Yocum, University Professor of Faith and Culture and a faculty member in the Religious Studies Department at the University of Dayton. 2 00:00:16.109 --> 00:00:25.950 Sandra Yocum: And this recording is part of a collection of conversations on the endlessly fascinating topic of the relationship between faith and culture. And I'm joined by Ms. Chanel Winston, 3 00:00:26.340 --> 00:00:33.570 Sandra Yocum: a graduate assistant who's completing her Master's degree in Pastoral Ministry here in the Religious Studies Department at the University of Dayton. 4 00:00:34.080 --> 00:00:44.820 Sandra Yocum: She's also heavily involved in ministry with her husband, Mt. Calvary Missionary Baptist Church's head Pastor, Sam Winston, Jr. And I'd like to welcome, 5 00:00:45.900 --> 00:01:02.880 Sandra Yocum: very much, so welcome, Pastor Stan J. Tharp, who has for over 35 years been involved in ministry and has served as a lead Pastor of the Christian Life Center for nearly 25 years - he started when he was obviously a child. 6 00:01:04.350 --> 00:01:12.750 Sandra Yocum: He holds an MA in Pastoral Counseling and Psychology, an MBA in Management, and a D.Min. in conflict management, wow! 7 00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:23.580 Sandra Yocum: And he currently resides in Dayton with his wife, Joyce. They have two grown children, and he's the author of "BIG," "The Financially Healthy Church," 8 00:01:24.090 --> 00:01:36.690 Sandra Yocum: "Teach Them To Give," and "Questionable Beliefs, "Unstuck," "God, Where are You?," "Your Best is Yet to Come," and "Soul Deep: Identity Theft" - is that, that's one, right? 9 00:01:36.810 --> 00:01:39.060 STharp: "Soul Deep Identity Theft" is one book, yeah, yeah. 10 00:01:40.140 --> 00:01:47.400 Sandra Yocum: So without further ado, I'm going to turn this over to Chanel, and we'll have our conversation. So welcome!//STharp: Thank you. 11 00:01:48.090 --> 00:01:59.010 Chanel Winston: Thank you Pastor Stan for joining us today. We'll just get right to the point, and ask, tell me how do you think about culture? 12 00:02:00.360 --> 00:02:07.710 STharp: Okay, I knew we were at least talking about this subject, so I'll confess to priming my mental pump with Dictionary.com, 13 00:02:08.910 --> 00:02:12.690 STharp: for starters, and indeed, culture 14 00:02:15.180 --> 00:02:21.450 STharp: includes shared beliefs, customs, behaviors, values, lifestyles of a community of people. 15 00:02:22.530 --> 00:02:29.340 STharp: And so, in that regard, I think that a community 16 00:02:30.420 --> 00:02:34.740 STharp: has its own sets and subsets. Like the greater Dayton community. 17 00:02:35.850 --> 00:02:51.480 STharp: You might be able to describe a certain culture, but then there are communities within that, and faith communities have a certain culture, there can be neighboring communities with a certain culture, so I think that one person can actually have several cultural experiences. 18 00:02:53.100 --> 00:02:53.610 Chanel Winston: Thank you. 19 00:02:54.720 --> 00:02:59.400 Sandra Yocum: So the other part of this discussion is around faith. 20 00:03:00.630 --> 00:03:15.780 Sandra Yocum: So, when I say the word faith, what comes to your mind, perhaps what comes to your heart, as you hear that word, how are ways that you would describe it or talk about it in terms of your own understanding of it? 21 00:03:16.860 --> 00:03:23.190 STharp: Well, I won't hide my bias or predisposition, having done this in a ministry career for four decades. 22 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:39.300 STharp: A scripture verse first comes to mind, that "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Heb 11:1). In a practical sense, faith is, I think, when a person identifies that there's more to this life than just what we see, 23 00:03:40.620 --> 00:03:43.020 STharp: that there is life after this life. 24 00:03:44.340 --> 00:03:54.450 STharp: And there, then you take that leap of faith. Okay, I believe there's a God who created us and created all this, and so having faith is that sense of hope 25 00:03:55.500 --> 00:04:02.670 STharp: that connects with God, and with my identity and my purpose and my reason for being. 26 00:04:04.350 --> 00:04:04.890 Chanel Winston: Thank you. 27 00:04:06.030 --> 00:04:11.580 Sandra Yocum: I was going to ask this question, but how do you see, then, faith and culture 28 00:04:12.900 --> 00:04:23.610 Sandra Yocum: working together, maybe not always working together, how do you think about those two? Especially in your ministry, I think this would be something that you think about quite a bit. 29 00:04:23.940 --> 00:04:31.860 STharp: Yeah I deal with it a lot. Well, the questions have been thought provoking for me from a couple of standpoints. 30 00:04:33.510 --> 00:04:38.370 STharp: If you take the broadest definition or experience of culture that we're in now, 31 00:04:40.350 --> 00:04:45.120 STharp: I don't know, the culture of the United States or the Western culture, whatever. 32 00:04:47.070 --> 00:04:47.910 STharp: I think, 33 00:04:49.050 --> 00:04:57.660 STharp: and I'll speak from the Christian faith, that's my perspective, I think the Christian faith is a part of that larger culture. 34 00:04:59.340 --> 00:05:12.210 STharp: And then in a smaller setting, like there is a church culture, right, where the lifestyles, the customs, the beliefs in a particular church are going to be far more in common. 35 00:05:12.840 --> 00:05:24.570 STharp: Alright, as you venture outside of that, there's more disparity, and so for a person who has a tight cultural focus and identity, 36 00:05:25.380 --> 00:05:36.420 STharp: has got to learn how to navigate as they venture out into other spheres, where people maybe don't share those beliefs, don't share those values, those customs, those behaviors, and so, how do you kind of interact with that. 37 00:05:37.440 --> 00:05:48.450 STharp: A Christian culture is at home, and also at times at odds with, the totally broad secular culture, so it's navigating those differences. 38 00:05:49.740 --> 00:05:50.520 STharp: I hope that makes sense. 39 00:05:50.790 --> 00:05:53.130 Sandra Yocum: It does, yeah it makes a lot of sense. 40 00:05:53.430 --> 00:05:57.270 Chanel Winston: So how does one navigate those differences? 41 00:06:00.420 --> 00:06:02.100 Chanel Winston: Or what ways have you seen that? 42 00:06:03.540 --> 00:06:05.520 STharp: Can you ask a more specific version of that? 43 00:06:05.790 --> 00:06:21.060 Chanel Winston: Right, so navigating these differences, particularly when we think about faith, how does one, how does, in your experience, how have you, I guess, in particular, navigated that, particularly with your multicultural congregation, 44 00:06:22.440 --> 00:06:23.130 Chanel Winston: and, etc.? 45 00:06:23.940 --> 00:06:42.060 STharp: Alright, some things I've been talking about with our board, with our leadership team, is: there's been a huge shift, having done ministry as long as I have, church work, if you will, it is totally different now than when I started in my early 20s, forty years ago. 46 00:06:43.710 --> 00:06:52.440 STharp: Used to be, for instance, when you were in church, it was a fairly clearly understood church culture. 47 00:06:53.640 --> 00:07:12.390 STharp: And those of us in church were "us," it was kind of "we," alright, and we had the same, for the most part, understanding of what was right, what was wrong, how we behave, how to treat people, both inside our cultural sphere and those in the larger culture outside. 48 00:07:13.710 --> 00:07:27.120 STharp: Now, fast forward forty years, that is way less the case. And it's probably still true in a small church, we've got a few thousand people consider us their church home. 49 00:07:27.810 --> 00:07:40.080 STharp: And so I can't assume, when I am speaking, for instance, to a couple thousand people, that we all mean the same thing, understand the same thing, value, even think the same things are right or wrong. 50 00:07:40.830 --> 00:07:58.590 STharp: So what I try to do, you know, Philippians 2 says, "Let each person work out their own salvation with fear and trembling." So there's a bit of room for personal interpretation of Scripture, and application, when I try to bring things back to, okay, what is it that tethers our culture 51 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:05.670 STharp: to stability? For us it's got to be interpreting the Word of God, the Bible. 52 00:08:06.420 --> 00:08:18.930 STharp: Now there's a lot of diversity, even in that, but I try to have a consistent hermeneutic, if you will, to, 'Here's what Scripture says, here's how we interpret it, and based on that, how should it flavor our lives, how should it interpret or 53 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:27.630 STharp: shape our interpretation of the rest of the world?' And people of faith, I think, for the most part, should be 54 00:08:29.490 --> 00:08:39.150 STharp: a positive impact on the lives of people who are not in the communion phase. You know, I tell people, for instance, I think Christians should be the bright spot at their workplace. 55 00:08:40.050 --> 00:08:47.310 STharp: I think if anybody should be a unifying influence in the workforce, and not the complaining, negative, divisive person, it should be the Christian employee, you know. 56 00:08:47.730 --> 00:09:02.820 STharp: I think the best neighbors ought to be Christian neighbors, okay, they're loving their neighbor as theirself, okay, they respect property, theirs and other people's, so I think that in much of our world, we're supposed to be the light of the world, in a good way. 57 00:09:03.870 --> 00:09:04.920 STharp: We're supposed to 58 00:09:06.150 --> 00:09:18.120 STharp: radiate the love of Christ to people, Who came not to be served, but to serve (Mt 20:28), and so from my Christian subculture of faith, alright, 59 00:09:18.780 --> 00:09:31.650 STharp: I want to live that faith out in practical ways. Most of the time, that's a blessing to culture, but there are dimensions of culture that are hostile toward what I would value, and then that's where those culture clashes happen. 60 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:34.110 Chanel Winston: Right, thank you. 61 00:09:35.160 --> 00:09:36.960 Chanel Winston: Dr. Yocum, you want to ask the next question? 62 00:09:37.470 --> 00:09:45.990 Sandra Yocum: So, I think it's really interesting, your talking about how your whole, 63 00:09:46.950 --> 00:10:01.530 Sandra Yocum: like the sense of your congregation has changed over time, can you give a more specific example, I don't know if you're comfortable giving a specific example, I'm not asking for person's names, but 64 00:10:01.770 --> 00:10:08.940 Sandra Yocum: some ways and challenges that you find today in your work as a minister? 65 00:10:10.770 --> 00:10:12.540 STharp: I am trying to use wisdom. 66 00:10:13.980 --> 00:10:16.050 STharp: Which Pandora's box I'm willing to open? 67 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:20.220 STharp: I need permission to post this. 68 00:10:22.230 --> 00:10:26.880 STharp: Alright, I'll give you one. This is probably the most benign example. 69 00:10:27.210 --> 00:10:28.830 STharp: Okay. 70 00:10:30.780 --> 00:10:34.290 STharp: But, I pastor a congregation 71 00:10:36.270 --> 00:10:41.550 STharp: in which I have people all across the political spectrum. 72 00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:43.590 STharp: From red to blue. 73 00:10:47.310 --> 00:10:56.640 STharp: There are some congregations that are still quite blue or quite red, and they're quite vocal about that. I have to 74 00:10:57.660 --> 00:11:00.210 STharp: be very discerning that I'm not 75 00:11:01.350 --> 00:11:16.230 STharp: being political, first and foremost, when I make remarks, and biblical. For instance, one of the things I tell people, because it's been a very heated year, it has been the most unpleasant political year for me in forty-two years of my career. 76 00:11:17.070 --> 00:11:19.980 Sandra Yocum: I think there's a lot of people that would share your 77 00:11:20.040 --> 00:11:20.880 Sandra Yocum: sensibilities about this. 78 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:29.580 STharp: I do not look forward to pastor through another presidential election, but what I tell people is that we are, first and foremost, Christians. 79 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:35.250 STharp: There are, in fact, when we get to heaven, we're not even going to be Americans. 80 00:11:36.330 --> 00:11:52.530 STharp: So my priority is not to make Republicans or Democrats, my priority is to make followers of Christ, and I have to be careful in the way I live my politics. My politics cannot get in the way of my evangelism. 81 00:11:53.850 --> 00:11:59.910 STharp: Alight, what I want to champion politically can't 82 00:12:01.350 --> 00:12:04.650 STharp: overshadow what I'm supposed to be accomplishing spiritually. 83 00:12:05.670 --> 00:12:20.400 STharp: And if my stance on political issues or political candidates, then, silences my voice to people that I would otherwise want to reach in a spiritual conversation, I have to put my spiritual conversation and priorities first. 84 00:12:21.750 --> 00:12:28.200 Sandra Yocum: Yes, do you find that difficult sometimes? I don't mean to be, like, 85 00:12:29.460 --> 00:12:37.470 Sandra Yocum: you know, like there are things, maybe sometimes that seem political, but they're also in the Gospel? 86 00:12:37.500 --> 00:12:39.060 STharp: Oh yeah, well, for instance, 87 00:12:40.590 --> 00:12:52.140 STharp: I make no bones about it, and you can scroll through our databank and find that I believe that the Bible says that children are a gift from the Lord, the fruit of the womb is a reward. 88 00:12:53.520 --> 00:13:00.870 STharp: If you look at the stories in Scripture, women who are pregnant referred to "the baby in her." 89 00:13:02.610 --> 00:13:20.430 STharp: Mary, when Elizabeth greeted her, you know, "the baby leaped in my womb for joy" (Lk 1:44), so I believe life begins at conception. I believe abortion is taking a human life. I believe that's biblically grounded, in a biblical worldview, so I have to speak in favor of life. 90 00:13:21.900 --> 00:13:27.900 STharp: So I have to sort through that. There are other things, just, political issues. 91 00:13:29.070 --> 00:13:39.390 STharp: I don't know, to wear or not to wear a mask, okay, I can't really find a chapter and verse to land on, 'Therefore, thus saith the Lord, put your mask on or off.' 92 00:13:41.580 --> 00:13:44.670 Sandra Yocum: Yeah, that does help, yes that does help. 93 00:13:45.540 --> 00:13:50.760 Chanel Winston: I really loved, Pastor Stan, when I came to visit and have a conversation with you, how you 94 00:13:51.240 --> 00:14:03.990 Chanel Winston: and your team kind of added a layer of resolution to that division that you had, the polarization that you had, with 'mask or no mask,' and you had a whole entrance, two different entrances and spaces, 95 00:14:04.470 --> 00:14:20.970 Chanel Winston: if I remember correctly, for those who were pro-mask and those who were anti-mask. And I just think that speaks to your ability to lead effectively, and to think strategically, as well as with your leadership team. 96 00:14:21.540 --> 00:14:25.860 STharp: Yeah we had a whole separate entrance, if you wanted to go to an auditorium where you were not gonna wear a mask, 97 00:14:26.070 --> 00:14:29.880 STharp: that's where you could go, you know. Another area, for instance, 98 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:32.760 STharp: I remember when George Floyd was killed. 99 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:40.500 STharp: Man, I saw that video and wept. And I preached on the Good Samaritan that week. 100 00:14:41.550 --> 00:14:49.740 STharp: We had a prayer service, we prayed about it, preached on it, and my basic application in that message was, that 101 00:14:50.760 --> 00:14:59.430 STharp: the priests and levite detoured around the man who was beaten and left by robbers, it was kinda like, 'It's not my problem.' 102 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:19.410 STharp: And, you know, the Good Samaritan that we all champion, who was directly at odds with Jewish people, the Good Samaritan that Christ made the hero of that story, models for us: it doesn't matter if it's not your problem! To deny someone else's problem is not love. 103 00:15:20.460 --> 00:15:23.430 STharp: And so we have to be engaged in 104 00:15:25.110 --> 00:15:37.140 STharp: the cause of racism and prejudice, and dealing with that, and so, then, the larger question begets, 'Okay, how do you deal with that?' That's where, then, 105 00:15:39.150 --> 00:15:46.770 STharp: it is wrong to be racist, to prejudge people, you know - biblically there's one race, it's the human race. 106 00:15:47.250 --> 00:15:53.250 STharp: It's wrong to treat someone otherwise. The Bible says, "Man looks on the outward appearance, God looks on the heart" (1 Sam 16:7). 107 00:15:53.880 --> 00:16:14.640 STharp: So, it is sinful to treat someone poorly. The Bible says, "What does God require of you? To do justice, love mercy, walk humbly" (Mic 6:8). Justice is key to God. The difficult nuance, then, gets into the next step, what we all prescribe as the solutions for justice. And thence, 108 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:17.220 STharp: all of a sudden, a theological issue, 109 00:16:17.430 --> 00:16:20.760 STharp: becomes politically enmeshed, and that's where it gets really complicated. 110 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:32.880 STharp: And so, one of the things that I feel like I need to do, and you know Chanel your husband helped me, you know, we started, we did a series at the end of September called 111 00:16:33.510 --> 00:16:43.980 STharp: "Courageous Conversations," and I just invited some black friends of mine. 'Hey, come on Wednesday night and talk with me in front of the auditorium, in front of the congregation, and let's just talk.' 112 00:16:44.940 --> 00:16:52.650 STharp: You know, and I said more than once, 'I've never been black, so help me,' you know, 'Let's talk, what do you deal with, what do you face?' And so 113 00:16:54.000 --> 00:17:02.340 STharp: even those conversations, I had two African Americans from our congregation, and then I interviewed three different black Pastors, on the other weeks. 114 00:17:02.880 --> 00:17:13.410 STharp: Even those conversations, people on either end of the continuum heard things that they weren't used to hearing, and so I don't profess to have all the solutions or answers. 115 00:17:14.580 --> 00:17:23.670 STharp: So I feel like, then, part of my responsibility is to be a catalyst, to at least have people in my culture of faith to struggle with the issues. 116 00:17:23.850 --> 00:17:24.960 Chanel Winston: Right. 117 00:17:26.760 --> 00:17:27.390 Chanel Winston: I love that. 118 00:17:27.630 --> 00:17:28.620 STharp: That was a long answer, sorry. 119 00:17:28.830 --> 00:17:45.180 Sandra Yocum: No, that was a very helpful and insightful, answer, actually. So, you know, you talked about faith and culture, another word that we might use within Christian communities is tradition. 120 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:55.680 Sandra Yocum: How do you see tradition in these modes of, you know, talking about faith and culture, and a church culture, and 121 00:17:56.850 --> 00:17:59.430 Sandra Yocum: passing on to the next generation? 122 00:17:59.940 --> 00:18:01.830 STharp: When you say tradition, what are you thinking of? 123 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:17.430 Sandra Yocum: Oh, I'm thinking of a variety of things; in your community, it would be biblically based, it would be ways in which you interpret Scripture that you carry on over generation to generation, 124 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:21.780 Sandra Yocum: prayer practices, those kinds of things. 125 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:25.050 STharp: Ah, 126 00:18:26.460 --> 00:18:28.200 STharp: I think, in my mind, 127 00:18:29.700 --> 00:18:34.410 STharp: I have a, it might not be an appropriate dichotomy or dividing line, but, 128 00:18:37.110 --> 00:18:38.310 STharp: I kind of see 129 00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:48.960 STharp: Catholic-Protestant, I think, I think, because when you were talking initially, I was thinking, 'Well, we don't have as many traditions as a Catholic believer would, 130 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:58.770 STharp: or, say, an Episcopal,' or whatever, as far as in the worship traditions; there's a lot of liturgy. We're not a real liturgical congregation. 131 00:18:59.790 --> 00:19:00.870 STharp: A little more free flowing. 132 00:19:02.550 --> 00:19:07.020 STharp: But I see tradition, so I'll speak to my, 133 00:19:08.190 --> 00:19:16.620 STharp: I think, non-'tradition-laden' environment, okay, I mean, there are some but not nearly as much as some others. I see with us 134 00:19:18.810 --> 00:19:29.460 STharp: tradition fading, I think it's fitting in the broader secular culture, and I think it's fading and very fluid in a culture of faith. 135 00:19:31.230 --> 00:19:35.520 STharp: And so, you know, when I, you know, I've been doing this for so long, 136 00:19:36.090 --> 00:19:40.110 STharp: Over thirty years ago I became lead Pastor, I wore a double-breasted suit, 137 00:19:40.410 --> 00:19:50.550 STharp: there was a choir behind me with choir robes, there were what they call modesty rails, you know, of wood that went knee-high, there was a piano to my right and an organ to my left, and that was 'church.' 138 00:19:50.910 --> 00:20:03.240 STharp: And when we lead worship, it was in 4/4 time like this, okay. Now none of that's happening, okay, so those worship traditions have changed, and so I don't, 139 00:20:04.260 --> 00:20:09.750 STharp: I think tradition gives people a certain amount of emotional and psychological comfort. 140 00:20:11.010 --> 00:20:14.160 STharp: A certain predictability and safety, which can be very good. 141 00:20:15.210 --> 00:20:30.960 STharp: At the same time, as long as we are staying anchored in truth, if the traditions that deliver that truth or communicate it change, I'm okay, as long as we preserve what I would feel is the truth behind it. 142 00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:38.550 Sandra Yocum: Very good, thank you. Chanel, you wanna 143 00:20:40.080 --> 00:20:43.590 Sandra Yocum: close us out here, or follow up? 144 00:20:44.190 --> 00:21:02.880 Chanel Winston: Absolutely, so our final question surfaces around some things that you've already talked about, George Floyd and dealing with racism, etc, as our call as Christians, what keeps you hopeful, in the midst of all these things? 145 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:12.180 STharp: Well, I have two answers. 146 00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:25.320 STharp: And I assume that there'll be a broad culture watching this or listening to this, so there'd be people that have faith, have a Christian faith, and people who don't. 147 00:21:26.490 --> 00:21:28.320 STharp: Within my Christian faith, 148 00:21:30.420 --> 00:21:36.240 STharp: there's an old hymn, speaking of tradition, that says 'My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness' (My Hope Is Built on Nothing Less (On Christ The Solid Rock)) 149 00:21:37.980 --> 00:21:51.210 STharp: My ultimate hope is in the fact that I do believe that there is more to this life than, however many years I live, I believe that I've put my trust in Christ, and as such, 150 00:21:52.230 --> 00:22:00.540 STharp: I'll be a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven, and so that, when I accepted Christ, I have eternal life that starts now, and it keeps going for eternity with Him. 151 00:22:01.350 --> 00:22:17.790 STharp: There's where my real hope is, and come hell or high water, pardon the expression, I'm gonna be okay, because I have centuries of saints who have gone before me, and they've gone through hell and high water both, and they persevered and they've been fine. 152 00:22:18.990 --> 00:22:22.710 STharp: In the larger setting, as far as what keeps me hopeful, 153 00:22:25.620 --> 00:22:30.180 STharp: I am more concerned for our broader secular culture than I am hopeful. 154 00:22:31.230 --> 00:22:52.950 STharp: I was talking to, I took a staff member and her husband out to lunch today, she's been on the staff for twenty years, they're about my age, and we marveled in a sad way how hostile our culture is compared to when we were young people in our 20s. We have little tolerance of opposing views. 155 00:22:54.330 --> 00:23:04.170 STharp: There was a big call for tolerance, but what I find tolerance really is, it's a tolerance for my views and intolerance for yours. 156 00:23:06.030 --> 00:23:09.870 STharp: Politics has become so angry, 157 00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:16.410 STharp: so divisive, so judgmental, and we are, 158 00:23:17.550 --> 00:23:22.950 STharp: we, you know, in the seventies, Christian thinkers warned about 159 00:23:24.090 --> 00:23:34.800 STharp: relativism, and the loss of absolute truth, we are now living the societal anarchy of no absolute truth. 160 00:23:35.220 --> 00:23:44.160 STharp: And all you have to do is go back a few thousand years, the historical precedent has always been the same. You go to the Book of Judges, and it was a roller coaster of, 161 00:23:44.550 --> 00:23:52.500 STharp: they would rise to prominence and fall in chaos, rise to prominence and fall in chaos. The rise to prominence would be when they would honor 162 00:23:52.890 --> 00:24:02.550 STharp: God's Word, God's biblical values, and then it would say, 'In those days, there was no king in Israel, and every man did what was right in his own eyes' (Jdgs 21:25). 163 00:24:02.850 --> 00:24:10.530 STharp: When every person does what is right in their own eyes, I don't care if it's the Book of Judges or if it's the United States of America, it is a recipe for societal 164 00:24:10.560 --> 00:24:23.670 STharp: and cultural disaster. And so I'm less hopeful for our culture, because we all want to say, 'I'll do what's right for me, you do what's right for you,' and we use the caveat, 'As long as you don't hurt somebody else.' 165 00:24:24.780 --> 00:24:29.850 STharp: And in not hurting somebody else and doing what's right in al of our own eyes, we're destroying ourselves. 166 00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:37.920 STharp: That's kind of, but, here's the deal, I'm a, I am, 167 00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:46.260 STharp: my wife says one of the most optimistic persons she knows, I'm a pathological optimist, okay? I just believe, doggonit, 168 00:24:46.980 --> 00:24:56.160 STharp: that if those of us who are supposed to be the light of the world, will let the love of Jesus Christ shine through us, we're gonna draw people to Him, and when I meet 169 00:24:56.910 --> 00:25:08.250 STharp: judgment or hatred with kindness, you know, a kind answer turns away wrath, okay? When I turn the other cheek, when I love my neighbor as myself, it has a healthy 170 00:25:09.120 --> 00:25:17.550 STharp: impact on culture, and it dampens down those negative things, and it allows us to give space to hear each other, 171 00:25:17.940 --> 00:25:35.040 STharp: and to connect with each other, and people who are very different, who may never see faith the way I do, can realize, 'Oh, you know what, I can respect him for who he is and what he believes,' and while he would like different for me, he can respect me, so I'm still hopeful. 172 00:25:35.310 --> 00:25:37.170 STharp: I haven't given up on things or I'd have quit already, 173 00:25:37.470 --> 00:25:37.890 STharp: you know? 174 00:25:39.210 --> 00:25:41.280 STharp: It's just that it's getting to be a steeper climb. How's that? 175 00:25:42.420 --> 00:25:43.020 Yes, sir. 176 00:25:44.340 --> 00:25:54.990 Sandra Yocum: Thank you so much, I really appreciate your time and your wisdom, and drawing from your long experience as a Pastor, so thank you. 177 00:25:55.320 --> 00:25:57.570 STharp: I hope I've been able to add to the narrative, so... 178 00:25:57.600 --> 00:25:57.840 Sandra Yocum: You have! 179 00:25:58.440 --> 00:25:59.910 Sandra Yocum: Very much so, thank you. 180 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:02.910 STharp: Alright, God bless you, nice to meet you.